EP-GP Loot Clarification

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EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Wylds » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:38 pm

Let me preface this by saying I am not here to bitch or point the finger. I am completely fine with how loot is handled I am just looking for some clarification on some things.


My first question is Person A, Person B and Person C all have mythic neck pieces with same stats. A piece drops that is 1 ilvl higher with a socket. The secondaries are equal between Person A and Person C. The secondaries are lower in priority to Person B but he values the socket as well. Person A rolls mainspec, Person B and Person C roll minor upgrade.

So my question is do the officers look at the minor upgrade options and what the players currently have or because they hit minor upgrade they are kind of brushed to the side for the mainspec guy. I just don't want to hurt myself in terms of gearing because I have been doing minor upgrade. I forsee this as being a pretty major point with the mythic HM vs heroic BRF pieces. And I just hope everyone else is honorable when it comes to minor upgrade vs main spec.


My second question is can anyone actually give me an actual value for minor upgrade vs main spec? I know heroic to mythic in my opinion is a main spec roll but for example if we kill Hans and Frans and a Heroic Warforged Mace with a socket drops which beats my Mythic Bladefist by 1 ilvl,has a socket plus its perfectly itemized. Is it technically a mainspec roll or still just a minor upgrade? If it is mainspec, Warforged and socketed. Is it only a minor upgrade if it's just warforged?


So my last point/question is that I will be trying to build a Serenity gear set which is Multistrike>Crit versus my ChiEx build which is Haste>Multistrike. The ChiEx build is my primary build and will be the one I focus more on but I will like to build a Serenity set. What should I roll when I go after these pieces? Minor Upgrade? Offspec?
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Stoic » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:04 pm

Wylds wrote:Let me preface this by saying I am not here to bitch or point the finger. I am completely fine with how loot is handled I am just looking for some clarification on some things.


My first question is Person A, Person B and Person C all have mythic neck pieces with same stats. A piece drops that is 1 ilvl higher with a socket. The secondaries are equal between Person A and Person C. The secondaries are lower in priority to Person B but he values the socket as well. Person A rolls mainspec, Person B and Person C roll minor upgrade.

So my question is do the officers look at the minor upgrade options and what the players currently have or because they hit minor upgrade they are kind of brushed to the side for the mainspec guy. I just don't want to hurt myself in terms of gearing because I have been doing minor upgrade. I forsee this as being a pretty major point with the mythic HM vs heroic BRF pieces. And I just hope everyone else is honorable when it comes to minor upgrade vs main spec.

I think your last line is most key here. I think the EPGP options are rather self explanatory. Main Spec is a Item that is significantly better than what you are currently wearing: The value of this should be based on Primary Stats and item Level. Since Secondary Stats have been devalued since the Squish compared to Primary in terms of gains, the item should be considered a "Main Spec" roll when these two factors are the greatest.

When the upgrade value of an item come down to Secondary stats I would consider that a minor upgrade. Yes, its still an upgrade because you do get slightly more mileage out of it due to the better stats but its not nearly on the seriousness level as ilvl/primary stat upgrades. You are using the system correctly by choosing "Minor Upgrade" for anything other than significant increases in Primary / ilvl.

My second question is can anyone actually give me an actual value for minor upgrade vs main spec? I know heroic to mythic in my opinion is a main spec roll but for example if we kill Hans and Frans and a Heroic Warforged Mace with a socket drops which beats my Mythic Bladefist by 1 ilvl,has a socket plus its perfectly itemized. Is it technically a mainspec roll or still just a minor upgrade? If it is mainspec, Warforged and socketed. Is it only a minor upgrade if it's just warforged?

You'll have to get Logii to reply on this to get a definitive answer on this but I think its fair to say based on my prior answer that only 2 possible combinations of randomness warrant a main spec roll: Warforged because it is a Primary Stat upgrade, and gem socket because that is a huge chunk of secondary stat (I'd say this is the exception to the prior answer).
Idk if you all know this but Logii sees the item currently equipped by each person that rolls which suits the slot of the item being rolled on. The awarding of the item therefor based off EPGP but Logii will try to negotiate when possible to get it to the player who needs the item most usually by poking the person who should be awarded the item and asking them if its OK to give it to the person best suited for the upgrade. It also helps him identify who the ppl are who are trying to game the system and 'loot monger' it up. Typically that's not an issue in our group and we highly discourage any like behavior. We all want gear, but we have each other's backs first and foremost and that begins with the Officers. We lead by example, and sometimes the Officers have to force Logii to keep a piece or two so he doesn't get behind.

So my last point/question is that I will be trying to build a Serenity gear set which is Multistrike>Crit versus my ChiEx build which is Haste>Multistrike. The ChiEx build is my primary build and will be the one I focus more on but I will like to build a Serenity set. What should I roll when I go after these pieces? Minor Upgrade? Offspec?


Minor Upgrade. Its not your Offspec. I'm sure your stabby friends won't mind if you clarify your intent in vent though. They usually note when they "Minor Upgrade" for combat weapons.

Again Logii is the only one who can answer this definitively but until he does consider this my philosophical attempt at answering your questions.
@Logii if you do respond or feel different than I have stated just post your reply and delete this post.
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Wylds » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:11 pm

Stoic wrote:I think your last line is most key here. I think the EPGP options are rather self explanatory. Main Spec is a Item that is significantly better than what you are currently wearing: The value of this should be based on Primary Stats and item Level. Since Secondary Stats have been devalued since the Squish compared to Primary in terms of gains, the item should be considered a "Main Spec" roll when these two factors are the greatest.

When the upgrade value of an item come down to Secondary stats I would consider that a minor upgrade. Yes, its still an upgrade because you do get slightly more mileage out of it due to the better stats but its not nearly on the seriousness level as ilvl/primary stat upgrades. You are using the system correctly by choosing "Minor Upgrade" for anything other than significant increases in Primary / ilvl.


Just wanted to say that I disagree with the above, squish might have devalued secondaries yes but removing reforging completely nullified this and possibly pushed it back in favor of secondaries in my opinion. I would agree with what you said if I could reforge say versatility back into a stat of my choosing but now that I can't more people will be looking for those BiS secondary pieces possibly at the cost of item levels.
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Stoic » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:01 am

If you can articulate why on any given piece you would consider that a Main Spec roll over a Minor Upgrade I don't think anyone will really argue with you over the semantics of the definitions. We aren't trying to babysit loot distribution, but trust people to be responsible in being self-reflective on the pieces' value.

There isn't a 100% objective definition or rule we can say because each class spec's needs are so subjective, therefor EPGP provides the best possible way to distribute gear based on effort. Hardcore guilds get compulsively precise about loot distribution with massive spreadsheets on who to give gear to first. While that's not something we'll ever do I can see the value in maximizing the efficiency of gear distribution, and that's simply not a step that we're interested in taking. Even with the set bonuses we're going to intervene as little as possible and let EPGP and people's team spirit play itself out.

Just a note to everyone here that the Gear Master spreadsheet isn't just for my use in helping decide who gets into what bosses: Its mostly for the player's benefit. I want each player to do their gear research prior to entering the instance. As soon as a boss dies you should be able to check the spreadsheet and know exactly how you are going to roll and if you are going to coin it. We need to work on making our loot distribution faster with less "Oh I rolled on the wrong item, here Logii I don't want it" and then we have to waste raid time rerolling on items. Know your gear. Document it in the spreadsheet for me, and for you.
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Logiibob » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:00 pm

Wylds wrote:Let me preface this by saying I am not here to bitch or point the finger


Loot is always a fun topic. From what I read, all good questions. I use to have a nice writeup on it but took it down because it caused more issues than help. In the past, I set EPGP to only have 3 options: MS - OS - Transmog. However, I'm encouraging people to 'try' other things and as stoic said, we're a team effort.

Main Spec = Minor Upgrade - there isn't a difference between the two. A main spec roll will cost the same "GP" as a minor upgrade 90% of the time. The other 10% is something like a weapon that cost 2k GP - I'll charge half the GP for something that is really expensive AND I see it's a real minor upgrade.

The way EP/GP works - I encourage everyone to roll on EVERYTHING they want. Remember, 5% of the EP/GP decays every week. This both helps you by lowering the GP, but it also hurts you by lowing your EP. It also protects from people 'saving' EP and getting all the loot from 1 boss.

Logi :shock:
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Selarintha » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:32 pm

I kinda have to disagree that WF automatically represents main spec roll. If you have the same item on and the one that drops is exactly the same to yours except WF imo that's a minor upgrade for you not a main spec roll. Now if everyone has that same neck then ok, MS roll for all who can use but if not then minor that shit because really it's only like a 5.0 dps inc.

Ilvl really means zero btw and should never be used as a basis for if this is a upgrade or not. Because some upgrades are not of the current ilvl due to itemization.
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Perucho » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:44 pm

I guess the solution to this Logii since the whole "minor upgrade" is causing more issues than solutions, is for you to take it off.

Seems like people don't trust each other on Doug the right thing, to the point that we need to double check their gear to make sure it is an actual minor upgrade, etc.
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Stoic » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:25 pm

I agree Perucho, I think this is being way too over-thought. In my books anything that has higher primary stats on your gear (trinkets excluded) warrants a Main Spec selection if it indeed is good for you. Any exceptions are...exceptions to the general definition, if your class has more stringent secondary stat needs, you are the exception not the norm in which case QQ to @warcraftdevs.
Each player should already know what gear he/she wants and be somewhat familiar of the stat priorities of the other classes that gear is being shared with.

Ergo: Roll for shit you need, trust the player next to you, let Logii sort it out, don't be a loot whore. /win.
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Zhaoyun » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:45 pm

I tank so I can be a loot whore.
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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Lyndari » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:36 am

I think maybe some of you are overthinking it. If the stats are better than what you have and it has a socket then definitely would be a main spec roll. If it's something that is just slightly better then what you have then minor upgrade. But if its something you really want then main spec. It's in your hands to choose what is best for you.

That's how I see it anyway. Even so if you have second thoughts or speak with who you were rolling against. It's not like you can't discuss it later and trade if need be within the time frame. I know I have done it before. It's just a PITA for Logi cuz he has to fix the ep/gp charges. :mrgreen:


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Re: EP-GP Loot Clarification

Postby Keldoran » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:17 pm

I tank, so I get the scraps left over from everyone else.

Except Tier gear, cause reasons!
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